What should a faithful Catholic do when the Church seems to be in crisis, when her leaders disappoint us, and when the temptation to despair or simply walk away becomes overwhelming?
This question emerged as one of the most important themes of our latest conversation on Regina Unscripted, when Katherine and Mark were joined by our friend Joshua Charles, Catholic convert, author and founder of Eternal Christendom.
Joshua’s journey into the Catholic Church began not with an attraction to Catholic culture or liturgy, but with a profound love of Scripture and a growing recognition that Protestantism could not satisfactorily answer some fundamental questions about Christian authority, doctrine and salvation. His encounter with the Church Fathers eventually led him into full communion with the Catholic Church in 2019, but, as he explained, conversion is not simply an event in the past. It is something that must continue throughout our lives.
We explored how becoming Catholic transformed his understanding of morality, including his former defence of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. His explanation was particularly striking because it brought the discussion back to a principle that modern society finds extraordinarily difficult to accept: we may never do evil that good may come of it.
Joshua expressed this with remarkable simplicity:
“If you never want to do evil, the secret is be willing to suffer.”
That insight runs through much of our conversation, from his deeply personal testimony about the transformative power of praying the Rosary every day, to the importance of prayer, fasting and penance for those we love, particularly those who have fallen away from the Faith.
We also discussed Pope Leo XIV, the extraordinary scenes during his recent visit to France, and the responsibilities of Catholics who are concerned about developments within the Church. Joshua was refreshingly candid about the difficulties facing the Church and the legitimacy of questioning decisions made by her hierarchy. But he also challenged a tendency, increasingly evident in Catholic commentary, to become so consumed by ecclesiastical controversies that we neglect our own spiritual lives.
There is a world of difference between defending the Faith and allowing our frustrations with the hierarchy to become the defining characteristic of our Catholicism.
Perhaps the most powerful moment came towards the end, when Joshua introduced us to St Augustine’s image of the Church as a threshing floor, upon which the wheat and the chaff remain mixed until the final judgement.
Augustine was addressing a problem remarkably familiar to Catholics today: the scandal of discovering wickedness, hypocrisy and even sacrilege among those who profess the Christian Faith. His answer was neither to excuse these evils nor to abandon the Church because of them.
Rather, he warned the faithful against attempting to separate themselves from the chaff before Christ Himself comes to judge.
“Let him remain. Let him not depart from the threshing floor.”
It is an extraordinary passage, and one which speaks directly to those tempted to believe that the present crisis somehow invalidates the Church’s divine constitution or justifies withdrawing from her communion.
We must never confuse fidelity to Christ with an obligation to defend every action of those entrusted with governing His Church. But neither can we confuse righteous indignation with holiness, or imagine that the Church ceases to be Christ’s Church when she suffers through the sins of her members.
The answer, ultimately, is not to become less Catholic in response to the Church’s difficulties, but to become more deeply and authentically Catholic ourselves.
This was a thoroughly enjoyable and thought-provoking conversation, ranging from the earliest centuries of Christianity to some of the most pressing questions facing Catholics today. Joshua brings a remarkable knowledge of the Church Fathers, but what makes his contribution particularly valuable is his insistence that their wisdom must shape not merely what we believe, but how we actually live.
I hope you enjoy watching it as much as Katherine and I enjoyed recording it.
Watch our full conversation with Joshua Charles below, and do share your thoughts in the comments.
You can also discover Joshua’s excellent work at Eternal Christendom.